Cap upgrade Conion c100f then not working

[caution]

Those are switches inside the power jack that redirect ground depending on if you have AC or DC plugged in.
The upper switch moves when you plug in AC, so it redirects ground from the batteries and DC plug over to the transformer.
The lower switch moves when you insert a DC barrel plug, so it disconnects ground from the batteries.

The AC switch takes precedence over the DC switch, so if you happen to plug both AC and DC in, AC wins.

The AC switch is strictly a switch. The AC plug pushes down on a plastic piece attached to the switch.
The DC switch's moving part (pin 4) has two jobs: it's metallic, and creates the connection to ground against the side of the DC plug.
It also disconnects the ground connection to the batteries.

 

[keeney123]

Those are switches inside the power jack that redirect ground depending on if you have AC or DC plugged in.
The upper switch moves when you plug in AC, so it redirects ground from the batteries and DC plug over to the transformer.
The lower switch moves when you insert a DC barrel plug, so it disconnects ground from the batteries.

The AC switch takes precedence over the DC switch, so if you happen to plug both AC and DC in, AC wins.

The AC switch is strictly a switch. The AC plug pushes down on a plastic piece attached to the switch.
The DC switch's moving part (pin 4) has two jobs: it's metallic, and creates the connection to ground against the side of the DC plug.
It also disconnects the ground connection to the batteries.

View attachment 62338View attachment 62340View attachment 62341View attachment 62343

Thank you again Caution. I had no idea that the AC plug had a switch in it. I understood the external dc can have a pressure switch. I just did not expect the AC plug having a switch also. It makes sense now. One has to focus on the AC switch or the pin 1 and 2 connections. If it connects and has a resistance in the connection the return line will drop a voltage at that connection.

 

[keeney123]

I am a little confused. I know the Transformer board is alright. I touched up the solder joints and now get 20.1Volts out of it. I was confused at first on the power board because someone had made the orange wire going to the ground of the battery holder. I just relabeled it as ground. I also know that when I put negative lead of the meter to where the black wire goes and the red lead of the meter where the red wire goes, I get +20 volts.

Here is the problem. With both switches in the off state, I measure in ohms on the lowest scale 1 ohm or less from the red wire that would connect to the power board to where the cathode or the LEDs on the power/ alarm board. Here is the confusion on the power/alarm board the red wire is connected to the J2003 that is listed as r and the black wire is connected to the B. Looking from the back top side of the power/alarm board where the top of the switches is the red wire is on the right-hand side and the black wire is on the left-hand side. Turning the board over one can see that this connects directly to the cathode of the leds. Am I missing something here or is the board marked wrong or are they running ground at -20 Volts DC?

 

[keeney123]

This is what I have physically looking for back solder side of board with power and alarm push buttons at top of page.

 

[keeney123]

i have also verified that the LEDs are in correctly. This I have done by soldering lead wires to the board on the connections that go to the led and using 2 AA batteries in series and touching the leads to the correct terminals. Negative lead of the battery to the shared cathode of the Leds and then the positive lead of the battery to the line going directly to the anode of one of the Leds. This then lights that led. The red wire soldered to the R connection of J2003 is going to the cathode of the leds.

I also check the blue wire that goes to CN309 the lower board from j2002 of the power/alarm board which also directly connects to the cathode of the Leds . I tried to measure the blue wire pole of CN309 on the lower board to R327 the 220K ohm and did not get a continuity verification on either side of the resistor. That means the cathodes that connecter to this blue wire is not connected to ground to the lower board. Perhaps the black wire of j2002 is the ground. I have not tried that.

I can verify when I got the unit before I change the caps. both the power led and the alarm led lit. I did not do anything with either the wires going from the power board to the power/alarm board. The red line of the power board went to the r of J2003 of the power board.
My conclusion is that my boards and unit do not align with the schematic.
I am going to return the R line to red of the j2003 and the Black line to the B of j2003. This does not make sense to me to do but I do not know the whole layout of the system.

I will also return the Black that goes from the upper cassette to I believe J208 because it was that way before I had to fix a broken board. I actually could not fix the board, so I solder the wires together where they went on the connecting board. Believing that grounds on the schematic whereas shown I solder the black wire to the brown wire. I put everything in Teflon tape. White Teflon tape has an extremely high resistance value better than that of electrical tape. I then rapped the Teflon tape with electrical tape. The tape is then tape to the back of the upper cassette.

All I will need to do is cut the black that goes to J208 and solder a connecting wire and then wrap it around a screw on the upper cassette deck. This is the original design. As the plane of that board was attached with a screw.

After I get everything together, I will power up and let you know if it works.

 

[keeney123]

Found the problem.
It has to do with either and error on the schematic or someone put all the diodes in backwards on the power board.

First there is one error on the schematic I have circled it in red. When drawing a negative battery terminal that side is always larger and the positive side is always smaller. That tell the direction the battery is connected. That means when the battery takes over. The connection to the positive voltage side of the battery will now power the units. Not the negative side. The other side of the battery then will be negative. the side that goes to the switched. That side would have a larger slash mark to indicated that. This seems to me to be reverse on the schematic. Also, the external DC has to have a separate ground from its positive lead. The diode in that line prevents a positive voltage from the power supply from taking out the external DC source coming in. As long as the DC source is at or below the supply voltage there will be no current in that line.

On my board the diodes 801 and 802 are connected at their anode terminals. Just the opposite of the schematic drawing. The diode 803 and 804 are both connected at their cathode side.again just the opposite of the schematic drawing. This still makes a full bridge rectified however the switches inside the external Dc and the inside the AC plug switch now changes from a ground switching to a positive DC switch. To me this is what I would expect. Instead of switching grounds the voltage gets switch.

But like anything one cannot depend on experience.

All my power board diodes in the bridge circuit have their cathodes facing towards the outer edge of the board.

I would ask caution if he has a picture of his diodes on the power board if he would share it. I think earlier he did I will have to look back?
That all I have now. I will have to analyze more to get a better understanding. One does not expect a unit out in field to have backward diodes.

 

[caution]

This is what I have physically looking for back solder side of board with power and alarm push buttons at top of page.

I traced the same board and see some issues. Since the power and alarm buttons each have two rows of six pins, I assume that they're 4-gang SPDT switches. Each row should have two switches, with each common pin the second pin in from each end of the row of pins (the second and fifth pin).

If correct, the PCB does not match the schematic. One of the rows of pins for the alarm button has nothing connected to the last two pins, which would mean nothing is connected to one of the common pins of a switch, even though all four switch sections for the security button are on the schematic: S2002-1, S2002-2, S2002-3 and S2002-4.

Also, I see PCB connections to all four switches for the power button, but only see switches 1 and 2 on the schematic. S2001-3 and S2001-4 are missing. It's possible the engineers connected to some pins as a way to get a PCB trace past a pin blocking its destination, and knew that connecting to the other pin didn't affect the circuit. I've seen that before in old audio gear. So even though these switch sections have connections to some of their pins, they don't actually do anything useful and were left off of the schematic.

Since I have photos of the transformer board, I know where the wires going to the power switch board are supposed to go, and not only are the names for the two switches for the power light backwards (S2001-1 and S2002-1) but there is no consistency to the layout of the four switches in each button. The section-1 switch for each button seems to be in the far outer corners for each switch, putting them on opposite rows from one another. The pin ordering is also inconsistent, because if the common pin of one of them ties to a throw pin on the other, then why does the board have a trace connecting the second-to-last (common) pin together across switches in each button?

Anyway, I don't have pics of where all the other wires go on the amp and tape deck boards, so I can't figure out how the four switches in each button are arranged, if their ordering is different between the two buttons, and if my assumption about the ordering of common and throw pins is right.

Oh by the way, in those diagrams I posted of the batteries/AC/DC configurations, I noticed a mistake. The schematic we all have for this unit came from the back of a Clairtone 7980 user manual. That version has reversed polarity on the DC jack from the Conion version. The C-100F has ground on the center pin and power on the outside, and the 7980 has power on the center pin and ground on the outside. But when you look at the schematic, the center pin (CN802 pin 5) has a little vertical line connecting it down to the ground line running under it. Clairtone didn't finish modifying the Conion schematic when redrawing it for the reversed polarity. That connection should not be there. The only thing the center pin should connect to is D805.

 

[keeney123]

I have concluded that my set up is correct. How I determined this is by the center pin of the external DC. That is the positive voltage pin. It is directly in the back of the connector. This pin goes directly the positive side of the CN804. The ground of the DC external connector go just to the white side of CN802. It can be determined to be ground because it is on the side of the external DC connector in the back. The outside round part of a external DC plug is always Ground. That way the center portions the positive side is always protected from accidental discharge. The White side is the negative side for the battery. My wires going to the battery compartment are orange and white. So, I assume someone change them. When they connected to the battery housing they switch where they went. It is obvious that the white wire should go to the spring side of the battery which is negative and the orange or if it was yellow at some time should go the tab side of the battery because it is positive and connects to the red side of the CN804.

Such Boomboxes could have different configuration for the same model. So, one has to proceed with "caution" when analyzing if their unit is correct.

 

[caution]

When drawing a negative battery terminal that side is always larger and the positive side is always smaller.

You have it backwards. A negative battery terminal is smaller and the positive side is always larger when drawing a schematic symbol. Do a Google image search for battery schematic symbol and you will see it.

 

[keeney123]

I traced the same board and see some issues. Since the power and alarm buttons each have two rows of six pins, I assume that they're 4-gang SPDT switches. Each row should have two switches, with each common pin the second pin in from each end of the row of pins (the second and fifth pin).

If correct, the PCB does not match the schematic. One of the rows of pins for the alarm button has nothing connected to the last two pins, which would mean nothing is connected to one of the common pins of a switch, even though all four switch sections for the security button are on the schematic: S2002-1, S2002-2, S2002-3 and S2002-4.

Also, I see PCB connections to all four switches for the power button, but only see switches 1 and 2 on the schematic. S2001-3 and S2001-4 are missing. It's possible the engineers connected to some pins as a way to get a PCB trace past a pin blocking its destination, and knew that connecting to the other pin didn't affect the circuit. I've seen that before in old audio gear. So even though these switch sections have connections to some of their pins, they don't actually do anything useful and were left off of the schematic.

Since I have photos of the transformer board, I know where the wires going to the power switch board are supposed to go, and not only are the names for the two switches for the power light backwards (S2001-1 and S2002-1) but there is no consistency to the layout of the four switches in each button. The section-1 switch for each button seems to be in the far outer corners for each switch, putting them on opposite rows from one another. The pin ordering is also inconsistent, because if the common pin of one of them ties to a throw pin on the other, then why does the board have a trace connecting the second-to-last (common) pin together across switches in each button?

Anyway, I don't have pics of where all the other wires go on the amp and tape deck boards, so I can't figure out how the four switches in each button are arranged, if their ordering is different between the two buttons, and if my assumption about the ordering of common and throw pins is right.

Oh by the way, in those diagrams I posted of the batteries/AC/DC configurations, I noticed a mistake. The schematic we all have for this unit came from the back of a Clairtone 7980 user manual. That version has reversed polarity on the DC jack from the Conion version. The C-100F has ground on the center pin and power on the outside, and the 7980 has power on the center pin and ground on the outside. But when you look at the schematic, the center pin (CN802 pin 5) has a little vertical line connecting it down to the ground line running under it. Clairtone didn't finish modifying the Conion schematic when redrawing it for the reversed polarity. That connection should not be there. The only thing the center pin should connect to is D805.

I think the D805 must be inside the housing I see nothing no D805 outside the housing. It may be hard to tell without an actually plug insert in the External Dc.

 

[keeney123]

You have it backwards. A negative battery terminal is smaller and the positive side is always larger when drawing a schematic symbol. Do a Google image search for battery schematic symbol and you will see it.

I am sure of this. I have done enough electronics to know. If someone has change that they have made a very bad mistake. it imitates the physical coil of a battery holder. The small tab indicated the positive of a battery holder.

Also, in electronics class and electrical class the negative battery side is always bigger. One learns this when doing superposition of batteries.

It also reminds a person that the larger part of the connector is negative. One can have many different voltages and current going out with only one return. The return line then has to handle all that current therefore it is bigger in physical size.

 

[keeney123]

Thank for your help caution it makes my life a little easier.
I really did not want to get into drawing or analyzing circuits. It is not my talent. I may be good at it, but it came with studying at two schools. One school of electronics I went 5 hours a day 5 days a week for one year. Also, I did 6 hours of homework a night every day of the week for a year. In another school of electrical technology, I went 4 hours a day for 5 days a week for 2 years with time off for summer. I study 6 hours a night when going to school seven days a week. I then got out and had a 15-year career in both research field and production fields.

Now here the real kicker. I have dyslexia. When I was in first grade, I did not know the Alphabet. My father decided to teach me. My Dad was from Mississippi. He was in the army from1940 till 1946 and in the reserves from when he got out till 1950.He fought in New Guinea and the Philippines. At one time state side he was a drill Sargeant. This is how he drilled me to learn the alphabet and learn to read starting at 6 years old. He did this every day of the week every day of the year for 2 hours a day for 5 years.
So, what I am saying is doing electronics was not second nature. It took a lot of struggles.

Actually, I had just wanted to become a portrait painter this is what came easy and no one had to teach me.

So, this boombox I was trying to help my brother out with it after my father had broken a board inside and then connected some connector to the wrong place. Of course, he was in his 70's when he did this and although he was a genus at mechanics he did not know much about electronics.

I don't know why I went on just thought you might appreciate my background.

I have the unit together except the back. I need to connect a few more things. Install the Amp board than close it up and see if it will work. If it doesn't my brother will have to get an electronic technician that has study radios and amplifiers to fix it. It has been a while since I have done this work and even longer working on radios and amplifier.

 

[caution]

I am sure of this. I have done enough electronics to know. If someone has change that they have made a very bad mistake. it imitates the physical coil of a battery holder. The small tab indicated the positive of a battery holder.

Also, in electronics class and electrical class the negative battery side is always bigger. One learns this when doing superposition of batteries.

It also reminds a person that the larger part of the connector is negative. One can have many different voltages and current going out with only one return. The return line then has to handle all that current therefore it is bigger in physical size.

These are numerous examples from service manuals with batteries on the schematic. They all show negative as the shorter bar.

 

[caution]

The outside round part of a external DC plug is always Ground.

If you have a Conion C-100F, then the outside round part is positive. This isn't rare, plenty of products have this polarity.
The back of your Conion should illustrate this. Here's a picture of mine.


And this is Clairtone


What I was trying to say in my earlier post is that the polarity is swapped for Clairtone models. Negative is on the outside, and that's what the schematic is showing because it was drawn for the Clairtone. The transformer board has a slight difference on the power trace, and CN804 has opposite polarity; it's plugged in the other way.

 

[keeney123]

If you have a Conion C-100F, then the outside round part is positive. This isn't rare, plenty of products have this polarity.
The back of your Conion should illustrate this. Here's a picture of mine.

View attachment 62370
And this is Clairtone
View attachment 62372

What I was trying to say in my earlier post is that the polarity is swapped for Clairtone models. Negative is on the outside, and that's what the schematic is showing because it was drawn for the Clairtone. The transformer board has a slight difference on the power trace, and CN804 has opposite polarity; it's plugged in the other way.
View attachment 62373

If you have a Conion C-100F, then the outside round part is positive. This isn't rare, plenty of products have this polarity.
The back of your Conion should illustrate this. Here's a picture of mine.

View attachment 62370
And this is Clairtone
View attachment 62372

What I was trying to say in my earlier post is that the polarity is swapped for Clairtone models. Negative is on the outside, and that's what the schematic is showing because it was drawn for the Clairtone. The transformer board has a slight difference on the power trace, and CN804 has opposite polarity; it's plugged in the other way.
View attachment 62373

So, I can confirm that the back of the external dc plug is like you claim with the positive on the round outside of the plug. Leave it to the Japanese to change the design. It is kind of like with the wipers of a car. The American cars always turned the wipers off by pressing downward. Then the foreign companies got involved and thinks changed. To me that only make things more confusing. It is the same with schematics for computers. One use to have a set of schematics for one computer model. Then when foreign companies got involved, they made one set of schematics for several models of a computer. That is the different generations and various other models. This only take longer for the technician to decipher but for someone with dyslexia it makes it near impossible to follow.

Yes, you are correct in your interpretation of what is presented. I will tell you that I was not taught that in school in the 1970s and the companies I worked for even into the 1990s all adhered to the principles I learned. All where American companies including the research companies.

The only thing I can say is when one does not have a standard one then creates confusion. It is like the National Bureau of Standards. A pound is a pound we can all agree. A person told me that they have changes that all to SI units and they don't need to have a weight as reference. This is not the case they still have a pound that is taken out once a year to measure its weight. Then it is put back in a controlled environment to maintain the correct weight.
It will be sometime before they can use light to determine the weight and material of solid item.
When I worked for Langley Ford Instruments I would on a partial analyzer. This machine could measure particles suspend in triple distilled water deionized water. This was done under one micron size. From that the atomic weight could be calculated. They used a laser at a certain frequency to do this and captured it at certain angles. Langley Ford was based in Amherst Ma. Norman Ford could not buy back his company from Coulter Medical Electronic, so he started a new company the used different colored Leds to determine the weight.

Thank you for pointing the out to me and being tenacious in your pursuit for the truth.
Now I will have to reevaluate this circuit.

 

[keeney123]

If you have a Conion C-100F, then the outside round part is positive. This isn't rare, plenty of products have this polarity.
The back of your Conion should illustrate this. Here's a picture of mine.

View attachment 62370
And this is Clairtone
View attachment 62372

What I was trying to say in my earlier post is that the polarity is swapped for Clairtone models. Negative is on the outside, and that's what the schematic is showing because it was drawn for the Clairtone. The transformer board has a slight difference on the power trace, and CN804 has opposite polarity; it's plugged in the other way.
View attachment 62373

My board is like the bottom board.
I have attached the picture on the bottom of my board.
I have circled the area of concern.
I have used red arrows to point to the contacts of CN804 and CN802 I have listed the colors of the wire that go to those points.
Can you verify if the colors are correct?

This is how confusing it can get when a standard is not applied.